Is Plato a Feminist?
Plato, through the mouthpiece of Socrates, advocates some radical views about woman in Chapter 7 of the Republic. In particular, he argues not only that women can be guardians, but that they can have equal duties (more or less) and an identical education. The only exception he makes is for physical difference between the sexes. These views are in stark contrast to a woman's place in 5th century Athens, in which a woman was prohibited from a political life and confined to the domestic household (and had a similarly limited education). Does it make sense to call Plato a feminist (and does it depend on your notion of feminism)? Or does Plato still miss something important about women? Furthermore, have we in 21st century America realized his ideas?
I believe Plato can be considered a feminist in relation to 5th century Athens. The era Plato was living in was very conservative when it came to the treatment of women. Women were not allowed to participate in any politics or voice their opinions and were looked at just to take care of the home and raise children. But Plato had different ideas. Many of Plato's beliefs challenge these Athenian gender roles. One of Plato's views is, "[women and men] should share all duties" (160). This belief of equality for the genders would be extremely progressive in Plato's time making him technically a feminist in his era. Arguably, Plato's most progressive idea is the fact that he believes women can be Guardians too. Plato reasons, "'Then there will also be some women fitted to be Guardians: for these natural qualities, you will remember, were those for which we picked our men Guardians'" (166). Plato recognizes that the certain skills and sense of mortality it takes to be a Guardian can be found in women. Here he explains women have the same ability to run a society as a man would. This idea would be very controversial in Plato's time, Athenians wouldn't even let women vote, to be a ruler of society would sound crazy to them. These ideas make Plato a definite feminist for his time but in today's lens his views would be looked at as liberal and maybe even normal. Today's culture and social views have evolved too much since Plato's time for him to be considered a full blown feminist today.
ReplyDeleteConsidering the time period in which Plato lived, he could certainly be viewed as a feminist. He was a very rare case of someone arguing for women’s rights. The vast majority of Athenians did not want women to have equal political, social, or educational opportunities. He makes his argument based on one’s nature, not their gender. Plato argues that people of the same nature should be allowed to have the same occupation, while people with different natures should have different occupations. Plato then offers a hypothetical: what if bald men and men with hair were determined to have different natures? Then, men with hair would not be allowed to have the same occupation as the bald men. To this, Glaucon responds that that would be ridiculous. The conclusion being that as long as people have the same nature, they should be allowed the same opportunities. Plato later says, “But if the only difference turns out to be that women bear offspring, while males mount females, then we’ll say that this doesn’t yet bring us any closer at all to proving that men and women are different in the context we’re talking about, and we’ll continue to think that our guardians and their women should have the same occupations” (Plato 166). Plato argues that the only difference between men and women is physical, and that other than that, the two sexes should have equal opportunity in society, which includes educational and occupational opportunities. For his time, Plato would be considered a feminist, and for today, I still think he would be. In many cultures today, women have very little say in what happens politically, they are not allowed to be educated, and they usually stay in the house. In the US, there is still a pay gap, and probably other inequalities which would be mostly fixed we used Plato’s ideas.
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ReplyDeleteMerriam-Webster dictionary defines feminism as “the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes.” However, defining a feminist merely as one who supports this ideology is insufficient; reserving the right to identify with a cause only for those whose beliefs match perfectly with the cause’s definition ignores important situational factors, factors which become especially significant when applying modern-day interpretations of feminism to a figure of 5th century Athens. For example, one might define capitalism as an economic system in which private owners, not the state, control trade and industry through free exchanges. Reserving the label “capitalist” only for those who embody this ideology to the fullest extent would exclude people who support a free market but want government regulations and minimum wage laws. In the United States, such a person is no doubt still a capitalist, but in the most capitalistic society this person would be considered an anti-capitalist leftist. On the other hand, a citizen of a communist state who expressed a desire for private ownership and profit-run business would be a capitalist with respect to his society, proving the reality that descriptions of one’s association with a political ideology are relative and depend on the ideology of the society itself.
ReplyDeleteWe must apply this analysis when determining whether or not Plato can be considered a feminist. In the Republic, Plato writes: “there’s no administrative job in a community which belongs to a woman qua woman, or to a man qua man … innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects” (Plato 167). Plato is definitively arguing for equal opportunity for the sexes. Despite his own belief that men are inherently stronger than women, he expresses a conviction that men and women are capable of fulfilling the same occupations with the same qualities. Even though several societies have progressed and developed ideals of equality beyond those described by Plato (albeit still imperfect in their own regard), Plato’s views are far more progressive than those held by many cultures worldwide today and are starkly different from commonplace 5th century Athenian thought.
Plato’s views on women were not perfect, and certainly if Plato wrote the Republic in 21st century California, he wouldn’t be a feminist at all. But just as Abraham Lincoln is revered as “the Great Emancipator” despite holding racist beliefs of his own, we must recognize that the sharp disparity between Plato’s political views on the sexes and those of the society to which he declared them merit him the designation as a feminist.
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ReplyDeleteAlthough Plato holds extremely progressive views, especially as an Athenian of his time period, he simply does not fit the definition of what it means to be a feminist. According to Dictionary.com, a feminist is to be someone “advocating social, political, legal, and economic rights for women equal to those of men” (Dictionary.com).
ReplyDeletePlato does not believe in true gender equality because he legitimately believes women are not as able as men in virtually all respects and because he believes that women should be given easier tasks when doing the same job as men. First, Plato does not believe women are equally capable as men. This view can be seen many times throughout chapter seven, however, one concise example of this is when he states “Innate qualities have been distributed equally between the two sexes, and women can join in every occupation just as much as men, although they are the weaker sex in all respects” (Plato, Waterfield 167). In other words, Plato sees all women as downgraded versions of men, which is sexist in itself. Shortly after this statement, Plato continues by strangely suggesting that wives of guardians should not only receive lighter duties because of their sex, but also carry out these duties nude, saying “So wives of guardians ought to strip off; they’ll be protected by goodness instead of clothes. They’ll take part in warfare and whatever else guarding the community involves […] However, they will receive lighter duties than men because of the weakness of their sex” (Plato, Waterfield 169-70). One can take away three fallacies in this argument for the ideal woman guardian: the absurdity of carrying out combative service nude, requiring one sex to do something the other does not, and having different roles within the same duty solely based on gender stereotypes.
One could only question Plato’s respect for women. Based on Plato’s arguments, he most likely views somewhat equal opportunities for women in his community as a necessity to a smooth running societal structure rather than sole feminism per se. Yes, Plato’s progressive ideas for women’s rights are good precursors to true feminism that we still strive for even today (such as tackling gender expectations/stereotypes), but no, Plato cannot be called a feminist.
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Works Cited:
“Dictionary.com.” Dictionary.com, Dictionary.com, www.dictionary.com.
Plato, and Robin Waterfield. Republic. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1994. Print.
I believe that Socrates would be defined as a feminist for his time considering the age that he lived in. Despite experimenting with democracy, Athens viewed women as mothers and wives whose main purpose was taking care of the household. Socrates on the other hand stated that women should are equal to men in and should share in their work. Socrates states “They should share in everything…the only qualification is that we’re dealing with a physically weaker sex”. (162). Unlike society at the time, Socrates believed that other than physical labor, a woman could perform equally to a man. This view of thinking is so ahead of its time that not even the United States, a country founded on equality and freedom of its people, allowed women to vote until 1992 with the passing of the 19th amendment. Although he states that women and men have different natures and therefore would be more suitable to perform different tasks, he does not specify that a woman’s role is in the household. He recognizes that one gender may turn “out to be better than the other gender at some profession or occupation” but doesn’t automatically assign these roles. (166). In conclusion, Socrates doesn’t assign specific roles but gives each gender an equal chance. Should one gender obviously prove itself better at a task than the other, then he argues it should be a job for that gender. He says that not out of spite or degradation but for the benefit of the city. Even though he does believe that “they are the weaker sex in all respects” I imagine it would be hard to think otherwise given the circumstances surrounding Socrates. Women were largely excluded from education and did very little politically. Given these factors, anyone viewing the society would be prone to think of women as less able. His support for giving both men and women an equal chance is why I argue that Socrates should be considered a feminist especially taking into account the time period in which he was born.
ReplyDeleteFeminism, in my opinion, is about equality (equal pay, equal rights, etc.). I don’t believe that Plato is a feminist. While one can argue that his mindset was advanced for his era, I do not believe that it makes him a feminist. Like Haleigh argued in class, feminism isn’t just advocating some of what feminism is or agreeing with small parts of it. The way I read Plato’s argument for females was essentially, “Well they CAN do it but most of them won’t be able to anyways because they’re females”. That isn’t feminism. While it’s ‘equality’ that they can have a job, it’s not equality to assume that most females couldn’t do the job just because they are female and therefore are less capable. Furthermore, feminism didn’t exist until around the 19th or 20th century, and to call someone who was so far off of when feminists first started is diluting the term that has meant so much to people throughout many generations. However, I will concede that Plato had some key issues down correctly, the destruction of the barrier between men and women for jobs, and to judge people on their own merit. While he was definitely more advanced than most people in Athens at the time, this still does not give someone the title of being a feminist. Especially if we were to consider the 21st century view of females, Plato would not be considered a feminist. If we were to talk about America embracing Plato’s views, I believe that some of his views have been accepted and unfortunately that both means the good and bad. There are plenty of people who believe that women are incapable of the same job as a man, and I believe that some of those views are unfortunately here in America. Overall, I believe that Plato cannot be considered a feminist, but I believe that he can definitely be considered very advanced compared to others during his era.
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